Tuesday, August 08, 2006

Reconciling the Vatican and moral responsibility

I was going to blog about embracing my inner summer-bunny on the beach this weekend or something trite like that, however reading Ayoke's blog recently brought to mind an issue that has bothered me for quite some time.

I was born a Catholic and raised a Christian, this is not about my faith. I love the Lord, so I do not believe that he will love me any less for questioning some the practices embraced by the Catholic Church. We look to the Church for guidance and clarity, and as such the Vatican wields an enourmous power. However, as we all know...With great power comes great resposibility. I consider the current stance on the Catholic Church regarding HIV and the use of condoms a flagrant abuse of that power, and a lack of moral responsibility.

The Catholic Church has banned the use of condoms, going as far as telling the worldwide flock that condoms promote the spread of HIV as their porosity allows the virus to pass through and spread the infection. Not only is this scientifically inaccurate, it underlines the 'head in the sand' mentality adopted by the Church when it comes to issues surrounding abstinence. Case in point, the Catholic nun who advised her HIV infected choirmaster against using a condom with his wife under the pretext that condoms would transfer the infection to her. The wife has now been unknowingly handed a death sentence by.....her Church???!!! Can anybody else see what is wrong with this picture?

Statistics show that in several countries worldwide, the highest number of incidences of new infection is taking place amongst married couples. Banning the use of condoms is only compounding the issue. I understand the promotion of abstinence as the best solution, because it is. However, the reality of the world we live in is that one persons abstinence does not guarantee that their partner will follow suit. The promotion of immoral practices i.e blatant distortion of facts and untruths presented as factual evidence has been employed by the Church to attain what they perceive to be a moral goal. I would argue that all credibility has been lost, and Catholic Church is complicit in the battering of humanity by HIV .

The bible says 'thou shalt not kill'. If you give an order sentencing someone to death, in my mind and the eyes of the rest of the world that makes you a murderer. I have seen no evidence thus far of anything that excludes the Catholic Church from this category. The blood of millions is on the hands of the Church and no amount of dogma or rhetoric can wash it off.


Blogger veronica said...

Ah the Vatican. You have to love them

4:29 AM  
Blogger Fred said...

"The wife has now been unknowingly handed a death sentence by.....her Church???!!! Can anybody else see what is wrong with this picture?"

Yes, I can: the Church did not had this woman a death sentence, her husband did. It all comes down to personal responsiblity which one does not abdicate to anyone else, priest, doctor, or king.

12:47 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

@fred - I'm quite open to debate and differences of opinion, however you do have to be following some logical thought process or be able to back yourself up with facts and figures.

In the example I cited, I am not absolving the man of responsibility, I am merely pointing out that what the Church has directed him to do will lead to the death of his wife.

Furthermore you are automatically assuming that the gentleman in question contracted HIV sexually and thus is at fault but we all know that there are other means by which the virus can be spread. It is unclear what level of blame rests with him, what is however clear to me is that by lying to him the Church has made a significant contribution towards this womans death.

I took the liberty of visiting your blog and had the honour of reading your opinion on the mental capacity of Nigerians in general, I have to say that if your reasoning capabilities are the yardstick for measuring intelligence then I am grateful to God for not placing me in the same category with you.

1:32 PM  
Blogger Fred said...

Let's see how you follow a logical thought process yourself...

"Furthermore you are automatically assuming that the gentleman in question contracted HIV sexually and thus is at fault ..."

Really? Where exactly did I state this? What ostensibly tortorous mental gymastics did you have to perform to obtain the fact I assumed he contracted HIV sexually? And why does that matter?? Stop setting up strawmen.

My point still stands, despite your baseless assumptions: some nun telling you it's okay to have sex with your wife while HIV infected does not magically obviate your own sense of responsiblity. Don't blame some organization for your own shortcomings. If he has sex with his wife HE is passing a death sentence on his wife, not the Church.

I'm glad you think it's an honor to read my blog, thank you.

Nigerians ARE dumb. Dumb people do and say dumb things and Nigerians have refined the art of saying and doing dumb things. I lived there a very long time, my mother was one, I know whereof I speak. I'm sure I can show you few (billion or so) other people who think the same. That said, Americans are dumb, the English are dumb, the French are particularly dumb. Who did I forget? Oh yes, the Vanuatu islanders are competely dumb: did you know their men build a tower of trees and jump off, their feet tied with vines? That's truly dumb. Heck, I am dumb (I'm sure you agree).

Need I add: if you don't like my blog, do refrain from reading it.

2:22 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

Fred, relaxation is needed on your part. If you are threatened by debate, then perhaps you shouldn't engage.

My assumption that you were under the impression that this man contracted HIV sexually came from you saying that he was at fault. If this is not the case and you no longer believe he is at fault, then please tell me who is?

Did you read the article referenced? Have you done any research on the instructions being handed out to HIV positive people by their churches? Did you catch the featured documentary 'Sex and the Holy War'? The man wasn't asking if it was okay to have sex without a condom. When condoms were banned he went to the nun to explain his situation and make his reasons for needing a condom known. He was then told A PACK OF LIES by this nun.

If you took pains to read the post or the article, you will see that this is not the lone point of view of the nun, it is the view of the Catholic Church as a whole. People are being told that condoms are laced with HIV. They are also being told that the virus can pass through condoms due to their porosity. Are you suggesting that it is okay for the church to tell lies??????

Furthermore, I never said I didn't like your blog. On the contrary, I am always intrigued when I come across people with a perspective I cannot relate to and it is reassuring to know that some of my preconceptions about middle America are indeed true.

With regards to you thinking Nigerians are dumb, I would never presume that your massive generalisations are of any consequence.

NB. If you choose to blog then you obviously want to be heard. If you take every difference of opinion as a personal attack then you are in for a lot of hurt feelings mate.

2:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Monef, I actually read somewhere that the commandment translated means, thou shalt not murder. That helped explain my own confusion where in certain instances God seemed to approve of killing. Not sure if the translation is correct though; you might want to check it out, if you want.

2:42 PM  
Blogger Mari said...

all these comments btw u and fred almost distracted me from commenting. I'm catholic as well. Born and raised. Sometimes i do wonder how and why the vatican city comes up with all the things they do. So condoms are an issue... oh well, na them sabi. I'm just speechless!

2:49 PM  
Blogger Fred said...

"My assumption that you were under the impression that this man contracted HIV sexually came from you saying that he was at fault. If this is not the case and you no longer believe he is at fault, then please tell me who is?"

Silly monef, if I spell out slowly with crayons what I think, will you stop force-feeding me with words I did not write? I'm already quite full from watching Fox News.

This was never about who or what was at fault. Pointing fingers isn't the point. In fact, your pointing fingers at the Church for handing "a death sentence" is the reason I commented in the first place.

Here is the point: regardless of what some organization you belong to puts out as reading material, it should not wipe your sense of responsiblity. I'm going to make nice and assume (hehe) that I'm pretty sure you will not be spreading HIV to your boyfriend regardless of what Sister Mary Louise Parker tells you to do or not do.

...it is reassuring to know that some of my preconceptions about middle America are indeed true.

Middle America? Silly Monef, you don't know much Geography in addition to a not surprising (being Nigerian) lack of common sense, do you? Idaho is not in the middle of America. If anything, it's in the top left hand corner... nowhere near the Middle.

2:51 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

Fred, it is obvious that a coherent debate is impossible with you as you continue to circumvent the issue that was at the heart of the original post. You are not interested in assigning blame....I am.

The post is all about the Church taking responsibility for the consequences of her actions. If no fingers are pointed then responsibility cannot be assumed. Like I have repeatedly daid to you, this is not about the actions of Sister Mary Louise Parker. It is about the Vatican putting out a directive for all catholics around the world to follow.

Oh and by the way, FYI Middle America is a colloquialism adopted by the rest of the world to describe a portion of the coutry devoted to a certain set of values...that mate most definitely includes Idaho.

Like I said...sometimes you have to step away from Fox News.

3:08 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

@ anonymous - I've heard that somewhere too, but cannot verify the source. I'll do some further research to see if anyone can shed more light, but it all sounds like semantics to me!

@mari - I am also puzzled by some of the stuff they come up with it seems to draw much needed attention away from other issues.

3:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I kinda got carried away with your tête-à-tête with Fred. I was born a catholic and I feel you on this one. I think the church’s standpoint on the use of condoms is mistaken and I am convinced that they will make adjustments to their current position in future.

3:14 PM  
Blogger NaijaBloke said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

3:19 PM  
Blogger NaijaBloke said...

Nice post Monef haven't been on ur blog in a minute and Mr Fred .. ..everybody has his or her own opinion on issues they blog abt and secondly when refering to the phrase that"Nigerians have refined the art of saying and doing dumb things" u might want to do some clearification on that cos just cos u r dumb or ur mum is dumb or u lived in Nigeria does not qualify every Nigerian as been dumb.

The only reason ppl refer to Americans as been dumb is just a little of what u just showed here, which is just plain ignorance by just qualifying Nigerians as been dumb.I kinda sense a lil' anger management problem here or maybe u have some issues u need to work out with any Nigerian u have associated urself with.

Take a chill pill and have fun bro

3:24 PM  
Blogger Fred said...

You are not interested in assigning blame....I am.

Yeah, no shit! Finally, you get it. Hopefully, you'll also finally get that thinking the Vatican hands a "death sentence" to a woman whose HIV-infected husband wants to have sex with her is ludicrous at best, and idiotic at worst.

It is about the Vatican putting out a directive for all catholics around the world to follow.

To which you are soullessly bound to follow? Pardon me for getting personal, but the last time someone deigned to have sexual intercourse with you, despite the Church's teachings, did you make this hapless fellow wear a condom or use a prophylactic of any sort? If so, THEN YOU ARE IN MORTAL DANGER OF YOUR SOOOOUULL! Woooo... and the ghosts of Moses, Elijah, and Jesus are making me type this now... wooooo...

Jayzuz, Maiiry and Jowseph! Yes, I know Middle America refers not to a geographical region of the US... Keerist, but you take yourself too seriously. Look up the word facetious in the dictionary next time. Then again, maybe you should look up the word dictionary in the dictionary.

3:24 PM  
Blogger Fred said...

Naijabloke said [edited for clarity]: "bleat"

Tell me, Naijabloke, in the shithole you call a brain, do you realise the following:

NOT ppl but people
NOT u but you
NOT lil' but little
NOT been (in your context) but being
NOT r but are
NOT ur but your
NOT abt but about
NOT clearification but clarification

Okay, that said, what was that you were saying about Nigerians being dumb?

3:34 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

Fred, this will be my final comment directed at you as it is clearly a waste of time and is detracting from the original post.

It's not about me getting it..you need to get it. My blog, my post, mt point and if you have none to make surrounding the actual issue then do not bother continuing.

As for the Middle America/geography debate, you brought that up..not me. Maybe you should take some time out to read you own comments.

With regards to taking myself to seriously or needing a dictionary...I let my blogging and commentary speak for itself..you should consider doing the same.

3:35 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

@naija bloke, I haven't been on your blog in a bit either..welcome back!!!

@ababot, I think you may well be right, or maybe I'm just hoping so for all our sakes

3:36 PM  
Blogger Fred said...

"With regards to taking myself to[sic] seriously or needing a dictionary...I let my blogging and commentary speak for itself..[...]."

Then you're a most thoughtless person.

By the way, the Vatican is on the line for you. They say that after reading your post, they want your opinion on human sexuality.

3:44 PM  
Blogger NaijaBloke said...

OMG!!! I just realize that ur description of urself fit u perfectly.
"I'm 35, fat, and almost happy. I have a wife and three cats, one very old computer, and many, many big guns".

Nonetheless fat fred whoz almost happy,this is not a certification exam we r doing here or were u assigned by blogspot to spellcheck everybody's posts?

Fred u need a happy life and since I can see like u said u r almost happy,I might suggest a quick way for u to be happy.Go jump off a building or smth.

Am waiting for ur spelling and abbr corrections o,like we use to say in NIGERIA "u R A BONFU.

4:06 PM  
Blogger NaijaBloke said...

To add to ur miserable and unhappy life ...thatz why nobody comments on ur miserable looking blog.

4:08 PM  
Blogger Fred said...

Naijablockhead once again defecates: "bleat!"

Hmm... How to couch my response so naijadick can understand. Difficult, but I'm going to try, in his language. Here goes:

a ds oip r ol' adm hdsl;a anbe s RuNN abld u r a BOMNBFUM ast POIUH sd bank sawdfsgoy scakl

Yeah, I told him!! Take that, shit-for-brains!

4:15 PM  
Blogger NaijaBloke said...

I guess u r past the stage of been helped by bloggers here.

Plz Plz Plz check ur self into a mental institution and come to think of it what happened to the ur abbr check ability?

Monef am sorry for taking space on ur blog like this ...

4:40 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

No worries naijabloke, I understand.

No more insults all please. Ta

5:07 PM  
Blogger Fred said...

{shakes head}

You play with pigs, you come out dirty.

5:25 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

I'm a strong believer in freedom of speech and I generally don't subscribe to deleting comments but if there is anymore abuse levelled at me or anyone else on my space I'll have to break my own rule....aight?!

7:55 PM  
Blogger obifromsouthlondon said...

jeez. talk about verbal gymnastics. tempted but nah. to many wars going on. just wanna make love

never thought much for catholic doctrine and the HIV issue shows how dated the whole thing is. dogma. to think i trained to be a priest!

You always think people would pick and choose and discard the ridiculous aspects but no. the power of religion

11:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ monef: I’m not telling you how to run your blog, but you shouldn’t delete anything…I’ve always said people take things far too seriously online. Do you think this conversation would have occurred face to face? Someone squaring up to you and telling you “Nigerians are dumb…”. Let those with online liver have their online liver…that’s the freedom of the internet…don’t go back on your stance.
On the real issue…I sort of agree with you on the fact that there are some people who through their staunch (twisted) beliefs and upbringings have placed all responsibility on institutions which have been known to fall flat on their faces over the years. I don’t know why any one individual would absolve all personal responsibility and hence believe all he’s told from his church representative, but I understand that some people find it easier to go through life that way. Who am I to judge?

8:16 AM  
Blogger Monef said...

@delot - thanks for the bucket of ice-cold water!! I was starting getting more annoyed on naijabloke's behalf than mine. However, you are right..I'm not about to do a 'seun osewa'. I won't be deleting owt!

9:24 AM  
Anonymous lolade said...


maybe you just needed time ( like days) to read monef's post cos she is making a lot of sense...

12:30 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

lolly oh lolly...my maiden in shining armour!

5:11 PM  
Blogger NaijaBloke said...

LOL@lolade ....I can see that u r angry with the bold letters u wrote ur comment in.
So do u have a blog cos all i keep getting was www.fredisandiot.com

Hahaha ...men am tripping

5:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Na wa oh! monef, your commenting corner has turned into a verbal boxing ring!

Well ignorance is bliss!

I am a catholic as well and sometimes what i hear from them baffles me.
Using condom is a sin- i got an earfull off my grandma for that one, she said dont use condom its another form of abortion! Well we argued for days, but what can you say, its her belief!
Well the best cure is abstinence

3:12 PM  
Anonymous Nneka's world said...

sorry that was me before, pressed something

3:12 PM  
Blogger Monef said...

@nneka...boxing for real oh!!!

na wa!!

You are right, the best cure is abstinence but at the moment it clearly isn't working. Something has to give sha.

7:49 PM  
Blogger Olawunmi said...

wow. i would address myself to fred, but there's no point.

monef, you know i always worry about the church and its ability to lead the flock in the right direction. even the church's stance on the contraception issue is outdated and damn right silly. if a man and his wife have had the children they desire, should they not be allowed to sustain the intimacy and joy of sexual intercourse without the distractions of worrying about getting pregnant? and that's in cases where hiv is not an issue.

as for the hiv issue, i think the church is just sentencing the wife to death.

but then, the vatican is staffed by celibate, sacred people who are far removed from the stark realities of the world that you and i live in. plus, the same church would rather cover up the abuse of children by priests, than face up to the fact that they have a problem. if that was a parent we would label them unfit and take their children from them.

10:50 AM  
Blogger Olawunmi said...

@ obi: you trained to be a priest? why do i find that hard to swallow? lol. you go man.

11:04 AM  
Blogger Monef said...

@olawunmi - i'm having hard time viewing obi the priest in training too!

9:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've just read this blog and Fred's comments. He claims his mother is from Asaba, I'm not sure he knows who or what he is. He says Nigerians are dumb, how dumb does that make him. I leave that for him to decipher, that is if he has the capacity to do that.Monef, please don't waste your time or energy on the likes of Fred.Obviously the church has a responsibility to tell people the truth.Maybe they feel that if people don't use condoms, then they will abstain.This of course is a fallacy, they should be bold enough to tell people the UNADULTERATED TRUTH.

9:31 AM  
Blogger Monef said...

Go Dolance!!!!

9:25 AM  
Blogger obifromsouthlondon said...

monef for real i did train. went to a seniorate after five years in marist juniorate but couldn't hack it. i think i was too young (19) and under exposed to make such a life changing decision. dropped out and went to university instead. and then i discovered women ...

3:54 PM  
Blogger Chxta said...

I have run from posting about this, but I finally will when I wake up. Too tired to think now...

12:42 AM  
Blogger TaureanMinx said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1:11 PM  
Blogger TaureanMinx said...

I'm a practising catholic but I don't follow all the rules. I feel at the end of the day, only you are responsible for the path you tread in this world. You will account for your life, not the pope and not the church. Making out that one sin is greater than another is the root of the problem.

A good nun would have told him to abstain from sex if she really wanted him to follow the no condom rule. I've learned not to trust the media as some of the stories are designed to tell a different truth

As for the Fred dude...Whoosaaaaaaaa. Nigerians did not make u a miserable old man. Get over it already.

1:16 PM  
Anonymous Owimin said...

Just say ko ni da fun iyalaya Fred. And hopefully when he breaks out in chicken pox tomorrow he'll wonder whether it is what you said that caused.

Omo odaran. His obesity has him obviously flummoxed!

Anyways, this is why I loved John Paul II, there was a seemless application of his understanding of the catholic doctrine and his regard for uptodate medical, Financial etc and how they affected today's catholic.

With Benedict XVI, I swear the church has reverted to the 1500s when a Medici was a pope.

Is it really awful for me as a catholic to hope he dies soon?

3:22 PM  
Anonymous Oghome said...

You posted this ages ago and so might not see this but I was wondering about your comment"I was raised catholic but converted to christianity" or something along those lines...What are catholics? Pagans? Catholics are christians whose denomination happens to be catholisicism. The new age or penticostal churches you would probably refer to as "christian" churches have the Catholic church to thank for the spread of the religion and the bible.

It is easy for everyone to point fingers at the church,hhhhhm maybe it is because it is the largest church and therefore has its mistakes magnified. I am sick of church bashing by ALL churches. Let everyone/denomination focus on getting to heaven themselves. Let any church/denomination without mistakes speak up.

I don't want to get into the theology of the church because it doesn't matter. People should go to the right church for them but I swear the next person that comes and tells me that "Catholics worship mary" will get a punch in the mouth for being plain stupid. The bible as you know it was complied and spread through the wealth of all the orthodox churches(at one time the only churches). I have a question, if those churches don't know what they are doing(churches going all the way back to the disciples I might add) are you guys saying that NO ONE went to heaven until these new "everything is permitted just to get converts" churches came along?

U know what, I am beginning to do what I can't stand and that is church bash. It is just that I find it so annoying when people open their mouths and discuss what they don't know. Going to mass for one and a half hours on sunday does not a catholic make. So for those who say "I used to be catholic" I am sure I can ask 5 basic questions that you won't know the answer to. Unlike some churches everything is not condensed into sunday service, mass on sunday is only for liturgy of the word(scripture) and eucharist(holy communion). Being a christian(and catholic) involves a more in-depth knowledge of Jesus that can only be acheieved through a daily participation in the body of christ.

About the HIV stuff, I totally agree with you but like everything sensational I am tired of hearing "stories". Where is this nun? Nuns don't make it daily practice of telling healthy husbands to sleep with their wives not to speak of those with HIV. Don't dumb down the churches position on contraception. Yes I don't agree with it because practically people need to protect themselves but I am also reasonable enough to know that I can't expect the church to encourage promiscuity. There are many catholics that disagree with the churches position on contraception and are working to change it.

About the church not listening to science, if you go to any of the world's best universities you will find catholic sponsored clergy there. The vatican actually has some of the best scientists, mathematicians and historians. Some Jesuit(catholic) universities in the U.S are great schools such as Notre Dame and Loyola. So please until I see some of these so called new age churches open schools that produce winners of nobel prizes for science let us chill on the church and science thing. Since Gallileo(and the church has taken back its position) the church rarely challenges science. Catholic hospitals give great medical care and NO they don't give contraceptives because they believe it is wrong,whether u agree or not you can't force a religious institution to become circular.

BTW what is all this catholic bashing for anyway? Do you know why no new age churches are in this debate? It is because they REFUSE to take a stance on it. Do you know what T.V. Mega Evangelist Joel Osment(I think that is his name, anyway the cute pastor from Texas) said when asked on his stance on abortion, contraceptives and death penalty on Larry King was? He said that everyone has their own ministry and his is to show people the good, thr riches and glory of God. Why would a man of God be afraid to comment on sins as stated in the bible? Christianity is not politics, you don't have to make everyone happy and no one said it is easy.

In conclusion, yes the catholic church has issues just like ANY other church but I never see posts about how much good the church has done. Or its fight against poverty(Mother Theresa was a catholic nun you know). Anyway STOP THE CHURCH BASHING. Until I know the position of new age churches(BTW Bush is not catholic but is not for promoting sex education or contraceptives in schools)let's not pick on one church. The issue about contraception is one that I agree needs to be taken seriously but because a church has dreams of purity and chastity does not make them bad, just a tad bit unrealistic. Let's stop giving people a haven for blaming the church, NO ONE needs to tell you not to sleep with your wife if you have HIV.

4:31 AM  
Blogger Monef said...

@oghome - While I understand your position, I have to disagree. You accused me of church-bashing, which is actually not the case. I was actually very careful with the way I worded things. The specific quote was 'I was born catholic, and raised christian...'. This means that while I was denominational at birth, that is no longer the case. It is not an implication that catholicism is not christianity.

On to the actual topic of the post, I think the example of the nun is only serving to detract from the reality of the point that I am trying to get across, so I will not even go into that. It remains up for debate whether that is acceptable or not.

What is however undeniably true, is that the catholic church has actually adopted the use of lies to convince people not to use condoms. I really don't care what the reasoning behind that is. I have no problem with the church not handing out condoms, and i made it very clear in my post that I understand why they preach abstinence. It would be hypocritical not to. But if you have conviction of your beliefs and faith in what you are saying then you really do not need to distort facts or tell lies to do that. Putting out statements declaring that condoms are porous and are laced with HIV is just plain wrong.

If you still think I am church bashing, then fair enough. But the examples you cited like Mother Theresa lived the word. If she was still with us ahe would be caring for the children orphaned by AIDS, not adding to their numbers.

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